I recently finished watching the 2 seasons of Copper on Netflix. It takes place in New York during the Civil War and focuses on an Irish police officer/detective who was a veteran of the war.
Anyway, I'm interested in the tradition of the Irish becoming cops in New York. Even while growing up, it seemed to me the tradition was still strong among NY police officers, quite a few were Irish cops as their fathers were before them and before that, and so on.
So, why is that? How did it start? Why did it continue so strongly? Is it still that way today?
I recently finished watching the 2 seasons of Copper on Netflix. It takes place in New York during the Civil War and focuses on an Irish police officer/detective who was a veteran of the war.
Anyway, I'm interested in the tradition of the Irish becoming cops in New York. Even while growing up, it seemed to me the tradition was still strong among NY police officers, quite a few were Irish cops as their fathers were before them and before that, and so on.
So, why is that? How did it start? Why did it continue so strongly? Is it still that way today?
When the Irish first went to America and places like New York, they formed their own communities for multiple reasons and life was very difficult. Of course crime raised its head out of this situation and the Irish it seemed had a flair for it in the early days. That's important because out of all the ethnic groups in New York in the second half of the nineteenth century, the Irish were probably the ones in most control of the streets. That includes the Italians. As the city grew and municipal jobs became available the Irish tended to take up these jobs and to a large extent (Not completely obviously) left crime behind. That's when the Italians began to control the streets. Words like nepotism and simon-ism and pluralism came into effect with family members in the cops looking after family members and having the pull to get them in. Just like any factory job today where you can find whole families working beside each other. They tended to stick together and look after each other. That was the way for most groups in America. That and I imagine there was a lot of prejudice between the different ethnic groups who would not have trusted each other. They went from the cops in to politics and business and when John F Kennedy became president they had finally arrived.
When the Irish began arriving in large numbers, they were seen pretty much as some view Hispanic immigrants today. They were the ones doing the dirty,nasty and dangerous jobs that few wanted including police and lesser extent firefighting.
Later it became a route to power and acceptance in society and a family tradition.
Probably Irish tend to be suited to police work. It takes a certain personality, and Irish tend to be fearless and not intimidated by dangerous criminals. Also, it was a relatively good job for someone without much education. Police are in a minor position of authority, and the Irish Catholics were not generally in authority back home.
I don't think the Irish losing control of gangs and getting involved in police work are related. Irish gangs took control from British gangs in most areas in the 19th century. In some parts of the south, British gangs still control organized crime. Jewish and Italian gangster mostly pushed out the Irish. However, the leadership eventually became almost all Italian.
Probably Irish tend to be suited to police work. It takes a certain personality, and Irish tend to be fearless and not intimidated by dangerous criminals. Also, it was a relatively good job for someone without much education. Police are in a minor position of authority, and the Irish Catholics were not generally in authority back home.
I don't think the Irish losing control of gangs and getting involved in police work are related. Irish gangs took control from British gangs in most areas in the 19th century. In some parts of the south, British gangs still control organized crime. Jewish and Italian gangster mostly pushed out the Irish. However, the leadership eventually became almost all Italian.
To say the got 'pushed out' is untrue..Like all minority ethnic groups the earliest ones went upwardly mobile at some stage in their development as a group. After the Irish this happened the Jews and now the Italians are into a lot of legitimate business and the Russians and eastern Europeans now have the streets. They will in time go upwardly mobile as well.
'After the early example of Charles Lynch, Irish immigrants quickly found employment in the police departments, fire departments and other public services of major cities, largely in the Northeast and around the Great Lakes. By 1855, according to New York Police Commissioner George W. Matsell (1811–1877), himself the son of Irish immigrants,[77] almost 17 percent of the police department's officers were Irish-born (compared to 28.2 percent of the city) in a report to the Board of Alderman;[78] of the NYPD's 1,149 men, Irish-born officers made up 304 of 431 foreign-born policemen.[21] In the 1860s more than half of those arrested in New York City were Irish born or of Irish descent but nearly half of the City's law enforcement officers were also Irish. By the turn of the 20th century, five out of six NYPD officers were Irish born or of Irish descent. As late as the 1960s, even after minority hiring efforts, 42% of the NYPD were Irish Americans.[79]
Up to the 20th and early 21st century, Irish Catholics continue to be prominent in the law enforcement community, especially in the Northeastern United States. The Emerald Society, an Irish American fraternal organization, was founded in 1953 by the NYPD.[80] When the Boston chapter of the Emerald Society formed in 1973 half of the city's police officers became members.'
Regarding New York specifically, I read a book some time ago (can't remember the title at present--but a lot of the stuff in the movies "Gangs of New York seems to have been lifted from it) about Tammany Hall and its influence. As I recall before the mid 1840s there was no police force in New York, but a system of Nightwatchmen who were merely extensions of the criminal gangs themselves. Tammany aligned politicians formed a municipal police force which essentially became a "super-gang" and it was largely Irish in make up as the Irish controlled the Democratic-Tammany machine and it was really a device to extort and rob with city council authority. State legislators tried to break this up by forming a "Metropolitan" police force outside of Tammany's control which led to New York having two police forces at war with each other over turf--even engaging in out and out street battles with criminal gangs as auxiliaries.(like the famous Irish Dead Rabbits on the side of the Tammany "Municipal police" and the Bowery Boys on the side of the "Metropolitan Police"). While the State Government and the non-Irish "Metropolitans" won for a while, the NYPD were later infiltrated by Tammany again and adopted a strict "Irish only" recruitment and promotion policy with commensurate corruption that lasted well into the 20thC.
Regarding New York specifically, I read a book some time ago (can't remember the title at present--but a lot of the stuff in the movies "Gangs of New York seems to have been lifted from it) about Tammany Hall and its influence. As I recall before the mid 1840s there was no police force in New York, but a system of Nightwatchmen who were merely extensions of the criminal gangs themselves. Tammany aligned politicians formed a municipal police force which essentially became a "super-gang" and it was largely Irish in make up as the Irish controlled the Democratic-Tammany machine and it was really a device to extort and rob with city council authority. State legislators tried to break this up by forming a "Metropolitan" police force outside of Tammany's control which led to New York having two police forces at war with each other over turf--even engaging in out and out street battles with criminal gangs as auxiliaries.(like the famous Irish Dead Rabbits on the side of the Tammany "Municipal police" and the Bowery Boys on the side of the "Metropolitan Police"). While the State Government and the non-Irish "Metropolitans" won for a while, the NYPD were later infiltrated by Tammany again and adopted a strict "Irish only" recruitment and promotion policy with commensurate corruption that lasted well into the 20thC.
Sweeping statements and generalisations laced with prejudiced seem to be your forte. 'we did this and they they that'
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico]Frank Serpico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] "Francesco Vincent Serpico (born April 14, 1936) is a retired American New York City Police Department (NYPD) officer who is most famous for blowing the whistle on police corruption in the late 1960s and early 1970s—an act of valor that compelled Mayor John V. Lindsay to appoint the landmark Knapp Commission to investigate the NYPD"
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=193781
"Since its founding in 1844, corruption scandals in the NYPD have warranted commission investigations approximately every 20 years, beginning with the Lexow Committee in 1894, followed by the Curran Committee in 1914, the Seabury Commission in 1932, the Helfand Commission in 1949, the Knapp Commission in 1970, and the Mollen Commission in 1993. Up until the 1980's, corruption always involved some type of vice or extortion that consisted of payments to officers to avoid being arrested or prosecuted for a violation or a crime. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, corruption that involved narcotics emerged. Officers realized that the relatively small amounts of money obtained from shakedowns were nothing compared to the hundreds or thousands of dollars available from narcotics shakedowns. The temptation of large amounts of money available from drug trafficking is the challenge currently facing the NYPD. There are several possible solutions to the problem. Creating more supervisory positions would increase the oversight of subordinate officers. Hiring practices that screen out all but the best candidates would increase the pool of officers with good character. Higher salaries for officers is another means of reducing the attraction of drug money; and increased internal and/or external monitoring of the police would increase the awareness of tempted officers of the likelihood that corrupt behavior would be detected and severely punished. 7 references and 1 figure"
The Bowery Boys: New York City History: Case Files of the New York Police Department 1800-1915 "During the Police Riot of 1857, cop turned against cop while the city burned and "Five Points criminals danced in the streets." And finally there's the lamentable tale of officer Charles Becker, the only member of the New York Police Department to be executed for criminal misdeed."
"#2 The Police Riot of 1857
New York once had two different -- and competing -- police forces and boy they just did NOT get along. It all came to blows one June day in 1857, with state-sponsored Metropolitan police officers attacking the renegade men of the Municipal police force."
I don't think ancientgeeser is being either sweeping nor generalizing.
Frank Serpico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "Francesco Vincent Serpico (born April 14, 1936) is a retired American New York City Police Department (NYPD) officer who is most famous for blowing the whistle on police corruption in the late 1960s and early 1970s—an act of valor that compelled Mayor John V. Lindsay to appoint the landmark Knapp Commission to investigate the NYPD"
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/publications/abstract.aspx?ID=193781
"Since its founding in 1844, corruption scandals in the NYPD have warranted commission investigations approximately every 20 years, beginning with the Lexow Committee in 1894, followed by the Curran Committee in 1914, the Seabury Commission in 1932, the Helfand Commission in 1949, the Knapp Commission in 1970, and the Mollen Commission in 1993. Up until the 1980's, corruption always involved some type of vice or extortion that consisted of payments to officers to avoid being arrested or prosecuted for a violation or a crime. In the late 1960's and early 1970's, corruption that involved narcotics emerged. Officers realized that the relatively small amounts of money obtained from shakedowns were nothing compared to the hundreds or thousands of dollars available from narcotics shakedowns. The temptation of large amounts of money available from drug trafficking is the challenge currently facing the NYPD. There are several possible solutions to the problem. Creating more supervisory positions would increase the oversight of subordinate officers. Hiring practices that screen out all but the best candidates would increase the pool of officers with good character. Higher salaries for officers is another means of reducing the attraction of drug money; and increased internal and/or external monitoring of the police would increase the awareness of tempted officers of the likelihood that corrupt behavior would be detected and severely punished. 7 references and 1 figure"
The Bowery Boys: New York City History: Case Files of the New York Police Department 1800-1915 "During the Police Riot of 1857, cop turned against cop while the city burned and "Five Points criminals danced in the streets." And finally there's the lamentable tale of officer Charles Becker, the only member of the New York Police Department to be executed for criminal misdeed."
"#2 The Police Riot of 1857
New York once had two different -- and competing -- police forces and boy they just did NOT get along. It all came to blows one June day in 1857, with state-sponsored Metropolitan police officers attacking the renegade men of the Municipal police force."
I don't think ancientgeeser is being either sweeping nor generalizing.
What percentage of the cops were Irish then? Who were the guys that got arrested in the cases you mentioned and what ethnic groups were they from. Leaving out the stereotypical ideas on the subject.
Sweeping statements and generalisations laced with prejudiced seem to be your forte. 'we did this and they they that'
and you kevin..nothing to add as usual..of course it is steak night washed down with some wine I suppose.
and you kevin..nothing to add as usual..of course it is steak night washed down with some wine I suppose.
I must admit I no nothing about the history of the New York Police department.
As for the ". nothing to add as usual.." I'll ignore as a silly attempt at an insult and I was enjoying a topic I know little off , unlike yourself it would seem.
Can you refute the post you disagree with or are you going to simply 'sling mud'?
I must admit I no nothing about the history of the New York Police department.
As for the ". nothing to add as usual.." I'll ignore as a silly attempt at an insult and I was enjoying a topic I know little off , unlike yourself it would seem.
Can you refute the post you disagree with or are you going to simply 'sling mud'?
Well if you know nothing about the history of the New York Police department, then why are you trying to derail the thread by making derogatory and luring comments while interfering in a debate between people who do know something about the departments history.
Well if you know nothing about the history of the New York Police department, then why are you trying to derail the thread by making derogatory and luring comments while interfering in a debate between people that do know something about the departments history.
I am not; you insulted another contributor about their comment and I thought ,at best , you could be accused of the same thing.
Here's an interesting piece from the book NYPD: A City and its Police
Possible reason for conflict between the Irish and Harper's police force
Back in 1842, “a city council committee issued a report decrying the level of crime and the apparent level of ineffectuality of the official efforts to combat it,” write James Lardner and Thomas Reppetto in their excellent 2001 book NYPD: A City and Its Police.
“Thousands that are arrested go unpunished and the defenceless and the beautiful are ravished and murdered in the daytime and no trace of the criminal is found,” declared the breathless city council report.
Two years later, New York governor William Seward created a unified force of 800 men, who would be appointed to their job by local aldermen. The problem for the Irish was that James Harper (of the famous publishing family) had just become mayor of New York City, running as a candidate for the infamous anti-Irish, anti-Catholic Know Nothing Party.
“The Know-Nothings preferred to have [police officers] named by the mayor, since ward control, in parts of the city, meant giving immigrants lots of input,” according to Reppetto and Lardner.
In other words, no Irish need apply.
I recently finished watching the 2 seasons of Copper on Netflix. It takes place in New York during the Civil War and focuses on an Irish police officer/detective who was a veteran of the war.
Anyway, I'm interested in the tradition of the Irish becoming cops in New York. Even while growing up, it seemed to me the tradition was still strong among NY police officers, quite a few were Irish cops as their fathers were before them and before that, and so on.
So, why is that? How did it start? Why did it continue so strongly? Is it still that way today?
Being a policemen was in the 19th century a poorly paid profession. The 19th century Irish were recently emigrants and were willing to take low paying jobs, and were often big, which made them perfect for being cops - they worked cheap, and they were often big and burly, and not afraid of violence, making them ideal for ordinary police work. And while police was a relatively poorly paid profession back then, it was still better and more respectable than some of the other work the Irish could get.
Once the tradition got started, sons followed their fathers' profession, especially as police pay improved.
Galway native Barney McGinniskin is generally acknowledged to be the first Irish-born cop in a major U.S. city. He was hired to police the mean streets of Boston in 1851, but he lost his job three years later when nativist Know Nothings took control of the Massachusetts state legislature and cleared precincts of many Irish Catholics.
Try as the nativists might, however, they could not fight the radical changes under way in Boston, New York and cities across the country. So many Irish immigrants escaping the Famine meant that, eventually, they would come to dominate local politics, and police departments.
In fact, when the infamous New York City Draft Riots arose in 1863, though many scholars have identified the rioters as heavily Irish, it is less well known that many of the police who put the riots down were also Irish.
Reppetto and Lardner estimate that as early as the Draft Riots, half of the NYPD was already Catholic, the vast majority of them Irish.
Author Richard Zacks estimates that by the end of the 19th century, nearly 70 percent of the New York police force was Irish-born or first generation.
The NYPD Emerald Society – the nation's first – was formed in 1953, and even into the late 1960s well over 40 percent of the New York police force remained Irish. When Boston's Emerald Society formed in 1973, half the city's police force signed up. .
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More than any TV show ever could, 9/11 revealed the 21st-century FDNY and NYPD to the rest of America and the entire world. Some viewers may well have been surprised at just how Irish New York's first responders remained, even in the 21st-century. The sheer volume of Irish names, particularly among the FDNY's fallen 343, is as shocking as it is heartbreaking. //irishamerica.com/2012/09/the-irish-coppers/
were often big, which made them perfect for being cops - they worked cheap, and they were often big and burly, and not afraid of violence, making them ideal for ordinary police work.
I don't know if this is stereotyping, but the Irish were probably more suited in general for police work than say Jews or Chinese.
I don't know if this is stereotyping, but the Irish were probably more suited in general for police work than say Jews or Chinese.
Walking the beat, yes. For detective work, Jews and Chinese would be every bit as good. Also, in the past, due to ethnic prejudice against them, a Chinese might have a hard time arresting a white person, as would a black policeman. I suspect a poor white person, even if they weren't Irish, might give the Irish cop less hassle.
Sweeping statements and generalisations laced with prejudiced seem to be your forte. 'we did this and they they that'
I am not quite sure why you have a fetish that requires a gratuitously snide and inane comment to almost every post I make, however, although I had determined that you were on my ITC list after your last tirade, I will relent and would point out that the piece you cut and pasted in post #15 is a selective quotation from Lardner's book, which is the title I could not recall, an extract suitable for people with an agenda. The fact that the "Nativists" and the various immigrant factions, especially the Irish, were at war with each other throughout the mid-1800s is a well-known and colourful part of American history and how ever one wishes to address it, the Irish immigrants supplied the bulk of the urban poor at the period as well as a large chunk of the "criminal class" and were particularly notable for political corruption, especially in New York. It is possible that were no more or less corrupt than any other group in those days, but the entire Tammany-Democratic machine has become famous for being so. Tammany leaders like Fowler and even Boss Tweed (surprisingly from Scots-Quaker heritage) were not always of Irish extraction themselves, nor was their immigrant constituency wholly Irish but they found it easy to manipulate the largely illiterate and unskilled Irish. Both the Tammany machine (and its counterparts in other American cities) and their opponents aimed to control the courts, local government and law enforcement and attempted to do so by fair means or foul, mainly the latter; when opportunities arose each group conspired to oust its opponents in the judiciary, city management and the police. While the "Know-Nothings" faded away, Tammany never did and its corrupt influence continued.
You may care to study some of the exposes and the prevalence of Irish officers in the New York police--here. https://archive.org/details/reportandprocee09senagoog
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stephen_Devery]William Stephen Devery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
In 1857, New York City's native-born elite used the Republican-controlled New York State Assembly to try to oust Mayor Wood and force genteel behavior on the Irish working poor. Their efforts led to the Five Points riot of 1857.
The State Assembly passed two laws in April 1857. The first law disbanded the New York City police department, a Tammany stronghold. To take police power away from Mayor Wood, the Assembly created a new unit, the Metropolitan Police, which would answer only to the Assembly.
The Metropolitan Police was also created to enforce the Assembly's second law, which reduced the number of licensed saloons in the city, limited the amount a person could drink, and closed all saloons on Sundays.
Many Irish working people saw these laws as a direct attack on their way of life. Some Five Points residents decided to resist. On Sunday, July 4th, the first day the laws took effect, Five Pointers celebrated Independence Day with saloons open and full, as was traditional. When the Metropolitan Police tried to enter the neighborhood, the Five Points riot began.
The July 4th riot began with fists and rocks and escalated to include clubs and guns. On one side there was the Irish of the Five Points, led by a gang of young working men known as the "Dead Rabbits." On the other side was the Metropolitan Police and a gang of native-born working men called the "Bowery Boys." After hours of battling, which left scores injured and twelve dead, the fighting slowly subsided.
The Five Points Riot of New York 1857-The History Box.